Post by Questioner on Jul 4, 2014 18:11:22 GMT 3
I have thought Calvinism and Islam are very similar in terms of how they view God. When considering the doctrines of Calvinism and their defenses of God's behavior, and then comparing all this to the Muslim's defense of Allah, they sound VERY MUCH ALIKE. Free will advocates have been compared to Catholics by Calvinists, but I think Calvinism sounds Islamic in terms of election and God's actions/decrees.
One source gives some good comparisons:
Islam & Calvinism (http://www.freewill-predestination.com/islam.html)
By David Bennett
Calvinism logically leads to fatalism anyway, since men remain sinners by the will of God by simply not being unconditionally elected to salvation. In terms of Calvinist doctrine, I agree with Fred Phelp's statement: "God does NOT hate them because they are sinners; they are sinners BECAUSE God hates them!"
This is logical, consistent Calvinism, and that too is what the Koran teaches about Allah. If Calvinism is true, God does NOT love all men beyond a shadow of doubt. Giving them Earthly goods is NOT real love because even Jesus Christ stated that, "What does it profit a man if he gains the world and loses his own soul [in hell]?"
God's love is ONLY for the elect under Calvinism! Period! The End! Calvinists CANNOT claim God is more moral Allah in terms of election: they have NO argument against Muslims here, WHATSOEVER. Arguing against God being fatalistic is ONLY effective for those who believe in libertarian free will: it is NOT truthful for the Calvinist to do so!
I think if Muslims knew about Calvinism, they would dismiss their charges against Allah as inconsistent and even downright hypocritical. I’d love to hear from a knowledgeable Muslim or ex Muslim on this issue. I would be curious to see if they believe Calvinism is similar in terms of Allah's decrees for election. I can very much tell that they are myself.
In fact, if Calvinism is really what the Bible teaches, I would say that the Koran is MUCH MORE HONEST in terms of what God's intents are toward men than in the Bible! Allah admits he doesn't care and wants to destroy men; God acts like in his "revealed will" that he wants all men to be saved, but in his "secret will" he most certainly wants men to be sinful so that they can be cast into hell!
By this reasoning, which God sounds more honest to you? Answer: the one who stated his intent clearly without the "secret will" is certainty the more truthful and transparent of the two! The “secret will” ALWAYS overrides the “revealed will” according to Calvinism too! Thus, the ONLY will that matters IS the “secret one!” I am sure some Calvinist will say to me, "You are misrepresenting Calvinism!"
Well, guess what? Roman Catholic apologists often say the same things to those who point out the obvious errors of Catholicism! Who sounds more Catholic now in their reasoning?! They are the same as Calvinists when you try to point out the obvious. They simply refuse to see it or acknowledge it. This is my two cents concerning Islam and Calvinism.
Also, does anyone have a good refutation of Triablogue’s supposed rebuttal of this comparison? I thought it was nothing more than word games, but I would like to see what you think. Additionally, Puritan Board also tried to give a refutation, but they came across much weaker to me than Triablogue.
One of the Puritan Board users seemed to somewhat skirt the issue by giving non-related comparisons, such as “One is through the eternal counsel of the Holy Trinity and to the glory of Christ Jesus. The other isn't. At least, that's the starting point of difference...” rather than simply dealing with the issue of election/determinism by itself. I am noticing that this evasion tactic is common with Calvinists, particularly Hypo-Calvinists.
This user also said that, “If I remember correctly, Michael Reeves mentions this in his book Delighting in the Trinity. He argues that we can't start our definition of God with Creator because it leads to the pluralism that's rampant today. They have ‘Allah the All Creating’ but we have ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!’”
Calvinism’s god is “all creating” in the sense that he determines everything that comes to pass, even through all the so-called “secondary causes!” Therefore, this user comes across to me as a hypocrite and a deceiver! I do wonder if knowledgeable Muslims could see pass these contradictions as well. Would anyone deal with Puritan Board’s arguments too?
The links are here:
“Is Calvinism Islamic?”
triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/05/is-calvinism-islamic.html
“Difference Between Calvinist Predestination and Islam?”
www.puritanboard.com/f34/difference-between-calvinist-predestination-islam-78775/
Thanks!
One source gives some good comparisons:
Islam & Calvinism (http://www.freewill-predestination.com/islam.html)
By David Bennett
Calvinism logically leads to fatalism anyway, since men remain sinners by the will of God by simply not being unconditionally elected to salvation. In terms of Calvinist doctrine, I agree with Fred Phelp's statement: "God does NOT hate them because they are sinners; they are sinners BECAUSE God hates them!"
This is logical, consistent Calvinism, and that too is what the Koran teaches about Allah. If Calvinism is true, God does NOT love all men beyond a shadow of doubt. Giving them Earthly goods is NOT real love because even Jesus Christ stated that, "What does it profit a man if he gains the world and loses his own soul [in hell]?"
God's love is ONLY for the elect under Calvinism! Period! The End! Calvinists CANNOT claim God is more moral Allah in terms of election: they have NO argument against Muslims here, WHATSOEVER. Arguing against God being fatalistic is ONLY effective for those who believe in libertarian free will: it is NOT truthful for the Calvinist to do so!
I think if Muslims knew about Calvinism, they would dismiss their charges against Allah as inconsistent and even downright hypocritical. I’d love to hear from a knowledgeable Muslim or ex Muslim on this issue. I would be curious to see if they believe Calvinism is similar in terms of Allah's decrees for election. I can very much tell that they are myself.
In fact, if Calvinism is really what the Bible teaches, I would say that the Koran is MUCH MORE HONEST in terms of what God's intents are toward men than in the Bible! Allah admits he doesn't care and wants to destroy men; God acts like in his "revealed will" that he wants all men to be saved, but in his "secret will" he most certainly wants men to be sinful so that they can be cast into hell!
By this reasoning, which God sounds more honest to you? Answer: the one who stated his intent clearly without the "secret will" is certainty the more truthful and transparent of the two! The “secret will” ALWAYS overrides the “revealed will” according to Calvinism too! Thus, the ONLY will that matters IS the “secret one!” I am sure some Calvinist will say to me, "You are misrepresenting Calvinism!"
Well, guess what? Roman Catholic apologists often say the same things to those who point out the obvious errors of Catholicism! Who sounds more Catholic now in their reasoning?! They are the same as Calvinists when you try to point out the obvious. They simply refuse to see it or acknowledge it. This is my two cents concerning Islam and Calvinism.
Also, does anyone have a good refutation of Triablogue’s supposed rebuttal of this comparison? I thought it was nothing more than word games, but I would like to see what you think. Additionally, Puritan Board also tried to give a refutation, but they came across much weaker to me than Triablogue.
One of the Puritan Board users seemed to somewhat skirt the issue by giving non-related comparisons, such as “One is through the eternal counsel of the Holy Trinity and to the glory of Christ Jesus. The other isn't. At least, that's the starting point of difference...” rather than simply dealing with the issue of election/determinism by itself. I am noticing that this evasion tactic is common with Calvinists, particularly Hypo-Calvinists.
This user also said that, “If I remember correctly, Michael Reeves mentions this in his book Delighting in the Trinity. He argues that we can't start our definition of God with Creator because it leads to the pluralism that's rampant today. They have ‘Allah the All Creating’ but we have ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!’”
Calvinism’s god is “all creating” in the sense that he determines everything that comes to pass, even through all the so-called “secondary causes!” Therefore, this user comes across to me as a hypocrite and a deceiver! I do wonder if knowledgeable Muslims could see pass these contradictions as well. Would anyone deal with Puritan Board’s arguments too?
The links are here:
“Is Calvinism Islamic?”
triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/05/is-calvinism-islamic.html
“Difference Between Calvinist Predestination and Islam?”
www.puritanboard.com/f34/difference-between-calvinist-predestination-islam-78775/
Thanks!