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Post by gorship on Nov 3, 2013 8:13:00 GMT 3
I understand this may out me a little bit towards some people (specifically Calvinists) however if someone who is a calvinist reads this, please know, as a brother or sister in Christ I do love and care for you. However coming to the thread title... Is this discussion necessary... Yes... It really is.
The natural Conclusion of Calvinism. --- God Is In Full control - Man has no free will God only draws those he wants to be saved God then punishes the sin in people they were never given any opportunity to seek forgiveness of. This action is just --- Its also (i would say) fair to say, the Calvinist sneaks out of the debate here by saying "well we cant judge God"
The gut reaction I have seen from most calvinists is to try and either a) change the debate question or b) (if they are consistent) accept this. The problem is... In an auditorium of Calvinists its fair to say 80% or more are inconsistent.
The question is; do we have a proof text that says God wants ALL people to be saved?
Yes we do. Here...have two..
God doesnt send people to hell because he decided not to save them, He sends people to hell for their SIN, If God is not willing any should perish, why would he withdraw His hand and allow them to perish?
This line of thought - that God would upon creating man, create them with the only purpose to spend eternity in endless torment is extremely damaging.
This is why we seem adamant against Calvinism - Its dangerous to every aspect of how you then read your Bible.
This is why this conversation is necessary, not to try and be intellectually superior but so that you look at a lost and dying world and realize all men have the ability to be saved if they would turn to God, its not a gift for a select few, For God so loved the WORLD.
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Post by Dr James Ach on Nov 4, 2013 6:09:40 GMT 3
This is a very valid point. Most Calvinists will tell sinners God loves them when they come to their church when they don't really believe that. If Calvinists were honest about what they really believe they would lose credibility and would never gain any more converts.
When you look at their claim realistically, if God predetermined the beliefs and desires and wills of the "un-elect", then the sinner is doing exactly what God wants them to do. But the Bible is clear that God punishes people for doing what He does NOT want them to do. This is a conundrum that the Calvinist can not possibly solve.
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Post by eph1eleven on Nov 4, 2013 13:08:58 GMT 3
Dr. Ach says,"When you look at their claim realistically, if God predetermined the beliefs and desires and wills of the "un-elect", then the sinner is doing exactly what God wants them to do. But the Bible is clear that God punishes people for doing what He does NOT want them to do. This is a conundrum that the Calvinist can not possibly solve."
Hello Dr. Ach. Thank you for allowing me on this debate board. I used to be an IFB/4 point Arminian; but by reading the Bible, and taking it as a whole(not isolating verses to counteract other plain texts) I can only honestly come to the conclusions of the reformers concerning predestination(or Calivinism as it is referred to here, though that is a misnomer,as Calvin was only a "4 pointer" and would not even be considered a true Calvinist today). What is interesting about your post, is that this argument is answered by Paul himself in Romans chapter 9. Paul makes the statement in verse 18,"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will he hardeneth". In verse 19 we find Paul answering a likely objection from his readers,"Thou wilt then say unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?". Paul answers," Nay but O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed, say to him that formed it why hath thou made me thus?". I am well aware of all of the arguments used to circumvent the plain English here(I myself used those very same arguments). Paul is clearly dealing with people, and not nations, as some would like to believe. The immediate context is Pharaoh, and the larger context is Jacob and Esau, but the real clue to understanding the context is to examine the hypothetical objection given by the Apostle. Would anyone's flesh be stirred up in this way if Paul was referring to anything but the predestination of individuals? Doesn't your own objection to Calvinism in this post match precisely the objection cited? Does this not declare Romans 9 to be about predestination? And what does Paul answer? "Nay but O man, who art thou...?" At the core of Arminianism is an unwillingness to submit to the sovereignty of God. An unwillingness to think of Humanity in a Biblical sense. The Bible says that man never seeks after God(Rom 3:11). This means, that if we were all left to our own "free will" we would all be damned, universally. It is God that shows Grace to men that never once sought Him. At the heart of the argument is the definition of Grace; and so I agree, this is a worthy debate, because the very understanding of Salvation apart from works is at stake. The question that the Arminiam must ask themselves is this,"why do I believe, and others do not?". If you answer,"because I was wiser, more willing, more humble..."; then you must pose this question to yourself from the Apostle,"who maketh thee to differ from another?". The danger of coming to a different conclusion than that of Paul should be obvious. Answering this question humbly and honestly will give a greater understanding of who God is, and a greater appreciation of His mercy. P.S. I work a lot of hours, so I probably cannot comment more than once or twice a week. Sorry if you wait long for a response.
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Post by genuinefaith on Nov 5, 2013 3:06:16 GMT 3
...its not a gift for a select few, For God so loved the WORLD. It is the message that the gift was pre-determined for only a pre-select few that I find very very disturbing. Where is the "Good News" in that message? Where is the "hope" for all mankind? If one really believes in the Determinist Soteriological System (Calvinism) to be true why would they leave their predestinational beliefs out of their "Gospel" message? How could one preach God's love and tell of His promises while leaving out that these don't apply to all, if that is what you believe? It would seem to me that any ethical person would be open about revealing the "whole" truth about the "Good News" or should feel like liar telling such half truths while leaving out that Jesus didn't die for all! But, thank God the normal Calvinist preaches the Gospel AS IF he were an Arminian! Most of time I have ever heard otherwise is from internet Calvinist. As a matter of fact I can only think of one time I heard a Calvinist refer to that a person might not have been pre-selected and thereby may have no hope as I stood face to face with that Calvinist. We were discussing a person I was witnessing to who wasn't there. I handle the situation calmly and and merely tried to explain to him why he was wrong. This was a new Bible study group I had joined and he looked at the Pastor/leader of the group and said, "We are going to have some trouble with this guy!" I said, "If I were you I'd be more concerned about the trouble you're going to have with God." OTOH, I often find it disturbing when an internet Calvinist is spewing his Determinist Doctrines because of considering that a seeker could be reading this dogma. I've gotten pretty aggressive while trying to pin down a dodging Calvinist to the truths of his logical conclusions. To be frank, if I were ever witnessing to a seeker in person and a Calvinist began spewing his doctrines of pre-selection to that person I expect he would be in for quite a ride! So...I would say debate is necessary and that it may help one defend the truth when it needs to done. What ever you practice you get better at. BTW, Still working out gorship? Yes, I saw your thread asking about steroids on that other site but was boycotting it so didn't get the chance to give my 2 cents so will do so now. Go natural my friend, eat right and train hard! That is all...
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Post by eph1eleven on Nov 5, 2013 14:03:57 GMT 3
Genuine Faith says,"It is the message that the gift was pre-determined for only a pre-select few that I find very very disturbing. Where is the "Good News" in that message? Where is the "hope" for all mankind?"
This is a brief rebuttal. Your comment is in regard to Gorship's partial quotation of John 3:16. One of the problems with Arminiamnism(and why I am no longer one myself) is the necessity of the Arminian to quote single verses out of their context, and ignore many other clear passages, and even entire chapters(e.g. Romans 9). The greater context of John 3 includes a definition of "world" that would eliminate some Arminian confusion.
"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
First, we should note, that the statement "for God so loved..." is not made exclamatory by the word "so". The word here means in Greek and English the equivalent of saying, "in this way". God is not stressing His love for the World, but is stressing His expression of it, and giving all Glory to His redemptive plan. It is a carnal mind that would make undeserving sinners the focal point. Second, this love is limited to those who would believe on Christ. This is a fixed number known from the foundation of the world and can never change(Matt 25:34, Rev 17:8). The definition of "the world" can be found by showing from the context who this love extends to; and the context will only allow for this love to be applied to "whosoever believeth"; not unbelievers who's names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Any of your objections can be answered effectively by Christ himself(in John 6) when He says,
" But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Christ says that "all" that the Father gives Him "shall" come to Him. If you will be an honest Arminian, you must reconcile your views to the entire Bible, and not cherry pick a few proof texts to base an entire theology on. The verse clearly shows that the only people who will ever believe are those given to Christ by the Father; not "whosoever makes a decision". If you find this "disturbing",then perhaps it is because you have misconceptions about the nature of God, and the nature of Man. Perhaps you come to these passages with a false presupposition.
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Post by genuinefaith on Nov 6, 2013 4:06:24 GMT 3
This is a brief rebuttal. Your comment is in regard to Gorship's partial quotation of John 3:16. Actually, my comment is in regard to the “biblical” doctrines of God’s Grace in general as they pertain to the true Gospel which should be put into the all the world as a message of hope for all in it. The thread is about, Is the Debate Necessary?, and my answer to that question is “yes” for which I gave reason, namely focusing on the Calvinist failure to be transparent about their predestination beliefs while preaching the “gospel”. A point you have ignored. I’m afraid you’ve jumped to several false dogmatic conclusions here as you begin to attempt to go down a trail to proof-text your entire system which you seem to believe this is some sort of a logical rebuttal to my argument. First, you should understand that you used to be an Arminian and now love to exclaim that you’ve “now seen the light of Calvinism” is what it is - pure meaningless rhetoric, IOW’s your misfortune in adopting a false doctrine is not a logical rebuttal to my argument. Second, your reasoning that I base my theology off a single verse is also a fallaciously rhetorical and a false suggestion. Third, if we were to begin addressing the proud agenda of the common Calvinist to start presenting scriptural proof-text food fights, rather than stick to the topic and address the logic of the argument, which in this case is why the debate is necessary, make no mistake, that I would gladly deal with your false presumption that the entire chapter of Romans 9 “clearly” supports your view and FYI I would likely begin refuting your mislead interpretations of that chapter by putting it into context with the rest of the book of Romans to demonstrate your deterministic conclusions to be false. But this thread is not about the never-ending chasing down of all your Determinist’ proof-texts one by one. That game bores me, seems I’ve outgrown it. LOL! Listen “teacher” you don’t want to go down that rhetorical road with me which you fallaciously attempt to support your view by through claiming your opponent to have a carnal mind. And why, because he does not buy into your scriptural gymnastics to change the simple and clear meaning that a child could understand concerning John 3:16 while you go about force fitting scriptures into your fatalistic theological system as if your interpretations were some kind of truth?!? That (carnal mindedness accusation) was a cultist’ debate tactic, you should be ashamed for trying to support your argument like that… Simply, I tire of hearing the Determinist arguments which attempt to make “world” mean the lucky pre-selected elect while they try to force fit “all” to mean those within that world. If you really want context to John 3 you might to back up and start chapter 1 v 9 rather than hypocritically yank out single proof-texts as you suggested in the beginning of your “rebuttal”. And again, no one has asked you to proof-text and support your view of pre-selected election, I’ve simply stated your gospel message is a half-truth if not transparent when delivering such a message. More proof-text, YAWN, …who is it that the Father gives to the Son? v45 “ Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father”. Those drawn which have come to believe… Here we with the go again with the rhetorical hypocrisy…YAWN. Would you like it if I said, If you’d be an “honest Calvinist” you would actually address the argument I made rather than start this typical Determinist agenda of “chase my proof-text rabbit arguments”? Ah, and perhaps “your” presuppositions are based on a manmade theological which cherry pick and force fits scriptures throughout the Bible to conform to it and maybe you should pay more attention to God’s Nature of Omnibenevolence and start to conform to that. And perhaps you should meditate on Col 2:8 for a while. But, these things are really unrelated to the fact that Calvinists hide their tales of secret election when they give their “gospel” which taken to their true logical conclusions deny hope for “all” in the “world” except those lucky specially pre-selected few. Again, Yes, the debate is necessary because Christians should be prepared to counter the Calvinist gospel of half-truth and despair for most with a message that the Good News is a genuine offer of salvation for all!
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Post by eph1eleven on Nov 6, 2013 6:05:17 GMT 3
Genuine Faith says,"...God’s Nature of Omnibenevolence..." Huh? God is good, even when He justly condemns the wicked. He owes no man anything. Genuine Faith says,"More proof-text, YAWN, …who is it that the Father gives to the Son? v45 “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father”. Those drawn which have come to believe…" Hold the phone buddy. Have you not read Eph. 4:1? "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world..." Predestination occurred "before the foundation of the world" before anyone alive believed on anything. And if you try to say that God "foresaw" our faith; then you must believe that God helplessly reacted before time, to the hypothetical faith of notional humans who's personality and aptitude(or aversion) to believe must necessarily have been determined by God anyway. So, no matter how you dice it, God either elected His children from the beginning unconditionally, or He has lost control of His creation and is now taking orders from us. Finally, do you believe that Romans 3:11 is true? "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God". Left to our own "free will" so-called, we would all be universally and justly damned. If it is not God's grace alone that saves us, then what makes you different from the majority of people who end up in Hell? Why do you believe the Gospel, and others do not? Are you more intelligent? Wiser? More willing? I know, more humble. Is that it? And how would you answer Paul's question," Who maketh thee to differ..."? Yes, this topic is worth discussing. Luther considered this the linchpin of the reformation. If "none seek after God", then even the act of seeking God becomes a product of His grace, and not something that you conjure up in the flesh. Think it through.
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Post by Dr James Ach on Nov 6, 2013 8:05:21 GMT 3
...its not a gift for a select few, For God so loved the WORLD. It is the message that the gift was pre-determined for only a pre-select few that I find very very disturbing. Where is the "Good News" in that message? Where is the "hope" for all mankind? If one really believes in the Determinist Soteriological System (Calvinism) to be true why would they leave their predestinational beliefs out of their "Gospel" message? How could one preach God's love and tell of His promises while leaving out that these don't apply to all, if that is what you believe? It would seem to me that any ethical person would be open about revealing the "whole" truth about the "Good News" or should feel like liar telling such half truths while leaving out that Jesus didn't die for all! But, thank God the normal Calvinist preaches the Gospel AS IF he were an Arminian! Most of time I have ever heard otherwise is from internet Calvinist. As a matter of fact I can only think of one time I heard a Calvinist refer to that a person might not have been pre-selected and thereby may have no hope as I stood face to face with that Calvinist. We were discussing a person I was witnessing to who wasn't there. I handle the situation calmly and and merely tried to explain to him why he was wrong. This was a new Bible study group I had joined and he looked at the Pastor/leader of the group and said, "We are going to have some trouble with this guy!" I said, "If I were you I'd be more concerned about the trouble you're going to have with God." OTOH, I often find it disturbing when an internet Calvinist is spewing his Determinist Doctrines because of considering that a seeker could be reading this dogma. I've gotten pretty aggressive while trying to pin down a dodging Calvinist to the truths of his logical conclusions. To be frank, if I were ever witnessing to a seeker in person and a Calvinist began spewing his doctrines of pre-selection to that person I expect he would be in for quite a ride! So...I would say debate is necessary and that it may help one defend the truth when it needs to done. What ever you practice you get better at. BTW, Still working out gorship? Yes, I saw your thread asking about steroids on that other site but was boycotting it so didn't get the chance to give my 2 cents so will do so now. Go natural my friend, eat right and train hard! That is all... I'll address your post thoroughly a little later, although the issue about Romans 9 is addressed by myself and others here in various places on this forum, and I am confident that it is about nations and not individuals. However, before I dialogue with you on these issues, understand that I am not an Arminian, nor a Calvinist so keep that in mind so you avoid labeling my positions as Arminian. OK, this response was directed to Eph 1:11, so looks like I have some bugs to work out on the forum
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Post by genuinefaith on Nov 6, 2013 23:52:37 GMT 3
Genuine Faith says,"...God’s Nature of Omnibenevolence..." Huh? God is good, even when He justly condemns the wicked. eph1eleven, Oh, brother! Your theology is seriously messed up in your logical reasoning if you’re in the habit of denying the differences between good and evil as it relates to divine judgment and human responsibility. But first, my entire post tried to pull you back to the subject which you continue to ignore and I told you several times I was not interested in chasing down the typical proof-texts of your entire Determinist system. I don’t need to go into these circular arguments and rabbit chases to make my argument on this simple point, which I reiterated several times and concluded my post with: Response: Methinks you just want to create a smokescreen diversion rather than address the claims of the lack of transparency and genuine hope and mere half-truth in the Calvinist’ gospel message. FYI, going about to proudly proof-text your system isn't going to prove my claim is wrong. If these things bother you so much that you have to resort to fallaciously changing the subject in the argument maybe should consider what is at the heart of your Determinist system and begin reverting back. Meditated on Col 2:8 yet? But I’ll humor you for a minute. You are correct IF you are saying God is ONLY Good and nothing evil EVER comes from Him. And correct that He , “JUSTLY” being the key word here, condemns the wicked. What you fail to recognize is this is done by His “JUDGMENT” involves mercy and a promise to all those that He made (His perfect work) which is made in TRUTH – ALWAYS. Read and understand the TRUTH of God’s Nature along with His ways of judgment: (Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Yet, all you can see through those Calvinist glasses is God predetermining men to be evil with no hope of responding to the Gospel and then God judging the wicked for their evil deeds that He supposedly created them to do before the foundations of the Earth! Do you not see the fatalism in your theological system of Determinism ? Is that strawman fallacy supposed to mean something to me??? Do you know the simple differences between “just judgment” and that which is not? (It means one being held response-able without excuse, Rom 1:20, for thei0r actions.) IOW’s do you understand that being “truth” means that that something (“just judgment”) is done in “truth”? Do you understand that God is a God of Truth and all His ways are just judgment in truth? Is this concept of Only Good and Only Just and Only in Truth really that difficult for you to grasp as lining up with the Truth of God’s Omnibenevolent Nature and that such does not equate to your strawman of “God owing man anything” but that from creation He made a promise to all men in Truth??? See the difference? Hint, it has to do with “Truth”… Ever heard of corporate election “IN Christ” Do you realize that Paul mentions the phrases “In Him,” “In Christ,” “In the Beloved,” 11 times in the first 13 verse of Ephesians 1 denoting this predestination of election you speak of as being corporate election “IN Christ”? Which takes us to the Biblical order of salvation for individuals: Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, To ignore or to change the inspired, divine order is false doctrine. “Hypothetical faith” !?! Really?!? - God’s gift of grace through faith is based on merely imaginary faith (where are the robot and puppet smileys on this board?! LOL ) – and that is what you suppose God bases His judgment on in Truth, imaginary faith??? It seems your theological system has a serious problem with maintaining truth… Look, I’m not going to spend my time chasing all your proof-text rabbit trails while you continue to demonstrate that you refuse to even address my origin argument pertaining to the issues and claims I’ve made to draw a logical conclusion which demonstrates the “truth” that the Calvinist gospel presents no more than a half truth. My reasoning stands as to why this debate is necessary – which is to uphold the “whole” truth of the Gospel! I’ll leave you with this quote to ponder: “If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers
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Post by eph1eleven on Nov 7, 2013 1:04:27 GMT 3
Dear Genuine Faith, The only problem I have with refuting your posts, is figuring out where to start. Hmmm...
Faith says," God predetermining men to be evil..."
No sir. Men are evil by their own choice. James says,"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
Men are universally deserving of Hell. Fact.
Then Genuine says,"“Hypothetical faith”!?! Really?!? - God’s gift of grace through faith is based on merely imaginary faith (where are the robot and puppet smileys on this board?! LOL) – and that is what you suppose God bases His judgment on in Truth, imaginary faith???"
No Genny. That's what YOU believe. Predestination occurred at the foundation of the world, before anyone(including yourself) existed. If you believe that God elects according to "foreseen faith", instead of "His good pleasure", it is up to you to explain why God is reacting to people and faith that do not exist; the very conception of which MUST proceed from God in the first place. You are attempting to escape the obvious conclusions by a feigned ignorance. That's not going to work. I'll just re-iterate my position until you answer it honestly.
Genny also said,"Do you not see the fatalism in your theological system of Determinism ?"
No. The doctrine of "compatibilism" (which I could explain to you in detail in another post) states that the eternal decrees of God are mutually compatible with the choices of men. It is the dichotomy of the temporal vs. the eternal. God's eternal decrees coming to pass by the choices and actions of men within the confines of History. There is no contradiction except in the finite Human mind. His thoughts are higher than your thoughts. A synergist attempts to limit the nature of God to the understanding of man. A Calvinist accepts all scripture and forms his understanding of God by harmonizing(not ignoring) plain texts.
I'll leave you with a verse to ponder(or ignore). Eph 1:11 says,"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL things after the counsel of his own will".
Did you catch that? "Worketh ALL things...". Hey Genny, does "all" really mean "all" in that verse?
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Post by genuinefaith on Nov 7, 2013 1:23:37 GMT 3
Dear Genuine Faith, The only problem I have with refuting your posts, is figuring out where to start. Hmmm... Well, I've explained that several times... But seems you just want to impress me with your knowledge of Determinist dogma rather than face the logical consequences to it...meaning having to hide these "truths" when you give your Calvinist gospel.
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Post by eph1eleven on Nov 7, 2013 2:30:09 GMT 3
Genny says,"But seems you just want to impress me with your knowledge of Determinist dogma rather than face the logical consequences to it...meaning having to hide these "truths" when you give your Calvinist gospel."
Hide what? This is the Gospel in a nutshell," Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
What are the implications of this message within the entire scope of scripture? Namely this, that only the elect will ever believe this message. Luke writes,"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed."
The preacher does not have to emphasize this point. It is not necessary to tell the elect that they must be "ordained to eternal life" in order for them to believe, and the reprobate will not care in any case. Apart from God's grace NO MAN SEEKS GOD. There is no one banging on the door of heaven, unable to get in. This is YOUR unbiblical assumption. The only time that this will ever be the case is when, at the last day, the door will be shut, and sinners desiring fire insurance will be shut out. Luke writes,
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are".
Are you ready to answer some basic arguments?
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Post by genuinefaith on Nov 7, 2013 3:20:49 GMT 3
Hide what? This is the Gospel in a nutshell," Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Are you ready to answer some basic arguments? Oh, I see, you believe they were telling the jailer a “half-truth” as they left out the part that if he wasn’t lucky enough to be one of the pre-selected few he “really” had no hope. Or would it be more accurate to say they told him a quarter-truth, being belief/faith is just really “hypothetical faith”? No, my friend Paul wasn’t a follower of Calvin and his Determinist doctrines… No, Paul didn’t offer salvation indiscriminately while believing Jesus only “really” died for a lucky pre-select few. Note Paul extended that offer to “you and your household” would be saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Did Paul know who or how many were in the jailer’s household??? Shame on you for suggesting Paul would lie like a Calvinist, hide the "truth" and would make a disingenuous offer of salvation! You would have Paul offering Jesus for those whom He never died for??? In the Calvinist system a person must be born again to even respond to the Gospel, did Paul think these people in the jailer’s household were born again before they even heard the Gospel? Paul have some kind of special revelation about these other people, did he??? LOL Do I want to chasing your rabbit trails now? No. Simply your presupposition lead you to believe that Paul must agree to your Determinist system and a half-truth gospel. Wrong! Doesn't change the fact that a half-truth is not the whole truth, or even truth...
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Post by eph1eleven on Nov 7, 2013 13:44:45 GMT 3
Genny says,"Shame on you for suggesting Paul would lie like a Calvinist, hide the "truth" and would make a disingenuous offer of salvation! "
Do you realize that making an emotional plea shows that you do not have a valid argument? Paul is only telling a half-truth if you can prove that the Gospel is anything more than the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Paul writes,
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
So my answer to you is this,"show me a proof text requiring the Gospel to also contain an explanation of predestination". If you cannot do this, then your point is unbiblical and moot.
Even if you obstinately reject the doctrine of predestination, you must admit that the "Lamb's Book of Life" has been a finished document from the "foundation of the world". Revelation 17:8 says,
"whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..."
So, no matter how you dice it, anyone who preaches the Gospel will necessarily preach to those whose names were not written since before they were even born. Those whose names are written, are not recorded due to any merit of their own. This is called "Grace". It is not a transaction between you and God. That would be "works". Paul explains in Ephesians,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)".
And the Psalms also show that man is "quickened" first, before he can even seek God. Psalm 80:18 says,
"... quicken us, and we will call upon thy name". Compare this with Romans 3:11,"there is none that seeketh after God". Do you see now, that only the elect respond to the Gospel; and that it is God who does the "quickening" by His grace?
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Post by genuinefaith on Nov 7, 2013 23:43:51 GMT 3
Genny says,"Shame on you for suggesting Paul would lie like a Calvinist, hide the "truth" and would make a disingenuous offer of salvation! " Do you realize that making an emotional plea shows that you do not have a valid argument? Paul is only telling a half-truth if you can prove that the Gospel is anything more than the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Paul writes, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" So my answer to you is this,"show me a proof text requiring the Gospel to also contain an explanation of predestination". If you cannot do this, then your point is unbiblical and moot. Show you why telling the whole truth (" all" of it) is right instead of having to accept your strange ideas that one should have to hide part of the message of salvation in that it only "truly" only applies to the lucky specially pre-selected few whereby you are forced to have to declare your message using your half-truth Gospel while you try to convince me this half-truth is somehow justified? Sigh, if I must, no problem: (Act 20:27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2Ti 3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Pe 1:2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (2Pe 1:3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (Joh 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (1Jn 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (Eph 4:25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. (Eph 4:26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: (Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.
(Eph 4:28) Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
(Eph 4:29) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
(Eph 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. *cough* BTW, Paul thinking the Holy Spirit of God could be grieved (contrary to your thinking) blows the the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election out of the water! *cough*(Isa 57:13) When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
(Isa 57:14) And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
(Isa 57:15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Here is the WHOLE truth of the Gospel my friend:(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Note: “ You” is used 4 times in this verse. You Determinists will be surprised by how much " you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing. You have to have a serious set of blinders on to miss that genuine faith must come from one’s own heart; this requires the ability to respond from their own heart, volition, and volition and determinism are logically mutually exclusive any way you might wish to philosophically splice your system together my friend. Proof-text till the cows come home but your doctrinal designs will never defeat clear logical reasoning to draw out the truth, for God reveals His way in Truth!
Here's another fact, if you did preach the "whole truth" to your Calvinist gospel as being only a genuine offer for a predetermined select few who have been pre-selected to have the ability to respond to the "hypothetical" call for faith then such a lie would give the hearer an excuse for not believing: (Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: So you have even a bigger a truth to worry about if you were tell your "whole truth" of your doctrines of pre-determined predestination: You've succeeded in logically declaring God's judgment to give mercy and grace onto the hearers upon the condition of "his" faith as being based on a lie. Remember Deut 32:4??? You seriously need to rethink these misguided ambitious attempts to proof-text that manmade Doctrine of Pre-selected Grace of which you are too ashamed of to tell the whole truth about! Col 2:8.
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