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Post by cantfoolmenow on Dec 28, 2013 19:06:36 GMT 3
TULIP DEBATE Christians against the heresy of Calvinism and TULIP.
Both of the those groups are good. A little more moderated.
Calvinism: What's so great about the doctrines of grace? This group is a war zone. Militant Calvinists that are rude and puffed up. They have little evidence but the typical scripture quotes out of context, and they make up for lack of argument with condemnation of anyone not Calvinist.
Calvinism can't be confronted on sites or in groups that don't allow heavy conflict in debate. Gets the blood boiling, but applies truth in the gap.
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Post by cantfoolmenow on Sept 20, 2013 3:50:01 GMT 3
Thanks for this great source of reasonable Theology. I'm new on the board. This seems like a good thread to post my thoughts on free will and sovereignty. I'm not a scholar and I'm open to correction.
First of all, the issue of God's sovereignty is a fabricated one. Sovereignty can only exist in cooperation with other lesser powers in the best interests of the citizenry. I'm sure you know it was a word invented in the 16th century for political purposes. For this reason I reject it completely. In fact, I would go so far as to say that God is not sovereign. Shocker? I say that because God is omnipotent. He is almighty omnipotent God, and does not need a "kiss up" term like "sovereignty" which pertains to a man-king.
Another thing about sovereignty is that it is not a word that describes method or mode of operation. Calvinists have usurped this word and redefined it as meaning absolute control over all things, which is an error. It is one of their main intimidation techniques to throw in peoples faces, for who would argue against God's power? But then they follow it with modus operandi on the back end and a lot of people just buckle under the doctrine.
The only way I can rationalize the use of the idea of "sovereignty" is in the worship of the believer. Sovereignty is not something God demands (nor needs to since He is omnipotent), but it is an act of worship as we give Him sovereignty over us, submitting our will, our thoughts, to his thoughts, in cooperation with His ways, to work with Him towards His purposes. See, sovereignty requires submission, but submission comes from free will belief. Unless submission is given, sovereignty does not exist. This is in line with the historical meaning of the word.
I agree that free will is God's will in His design. Personally, I don't like to say it's His sovereignty, but that's just me - I know how you mean it and I agree, and one would think the point should be obvious. God created the real world, placed man in the real world, and relates to man within that real world so that we may know Him in a real way.
Let me clarify what I mean by will. It is not power, it is not force, and it does not require or imply necessary action. It is merely to believe this or that, according to assigned meaning. "Free" merely means the freedom to exercise that belief without force. God's "will" is accompanied by power, ours is not so much. We may have autonomy over our decisions according to details of life and circumstances, but we cannot create one living blade of grass, while God can speak light out of darkness. The notion that man's will claims "sovereignty" over God's will is nonsense. It is ridiculous to assert such a thing.
As I have thought about free will recently, in light of the Calvinism debate, I've come to some exciting conclusions. I will call free will "free will belief", for one cannot exercise belief without will, nor will without belief, nor exercise either without being free. Free, Will, Belief - they are like the trinity of the mind, a triune pattern like "body, soul and spirit". None could exist without all three. I also want to clarify that I consider belief and faith to be almost the same thing, if not identical. "Faith" may have religious connotations, but they are the same, in my view. Let me repeat that belief and will could not exist in a context void of freedom.
Beyond the wordless thoughts of emotional response/reaction (ie, hunger, pain, etc), one could not form ideas and concepts without words and language. Man could literally not think without language. In order to use language, one must have words. In order to use words, one must assign a meaning of this or that to a particular word. To assign a meaning one must believe and conclude that that meaning is for that word and not another. In other words, one has to believe the word in truth means this or that. One must also believe that others have assigned the same meaning to the same word in order to use that word believing that the hearer will understand the assigned meaning. All of this requires belief. One could actually not THINK without belief, or the function of belief. One would be a jellyfish. The function of belief is fundamental to the ability to form thoughts, ideas and concepts. One could not conclude anything without this function.
It's because of this that my conclusion is that free will belief is foundationally necessary to function at all as a human being. Free will belief is God's perfect design, in His own image as a free will God, for mankind. Free will belief is inseparable from the human soul. Free will belief is the ability for one to have faith in this or that. Faith in itself has no meaning, it is merely an ability to assign meaning to an object outside of itself. It is not power of action or force, but merely an ability to assign value, meaning, belief as truth, to an outside object. That object for the Christian is Christ, but everyone one believes in things all day long, and everyone has faith in something. As a Christian, it is the object of faith that saves, not faith. So while the Calvinist denounces ability to have faith unless imposed by God, they are displaying gross ignorance to the fact that what, in essence, defines the existence of mankind, is the ability to have faith. The foundation of God's design in mankind is ABILITY. The TULIP is so radically upside down to reality that i is literally evil and a massive misrepresentation of all of life. It is not only a perversion of theology, it is a perversion of the fundamental design of creation itself by God. It is as much a perversion as the base perversions of Sodom and Gomorrah are to God's design of sexuality and reproduction. Strong words, but there you have it.
I have played around in theory with alternatives in design that God could have used. He could have predetermined everyone to puppetry, I suppose. Why did God design mankind with the ability, the necessity, to exercise faith in every function of his mind with free will? The reason God gave man free will is the ultimate grace of all measures of grace. The reason God gave man free will is so that WE MAY KNOW HIM and worship Him. Sin did not enter God's design before He was finished and rested. His design was complete. And I see no evidence that sin caused a re-design of creation. God's design was that mankind would be the sons of God, in fellowship with Him. It is still His design. The first and greatest gift of grace was free will, the ability to assign value and meaning, so that we may know Him and worship Him. I think the case can be made that it was so important to God for man to know Him, and be in relationship with Him, that there was no option but to give man free will, even knowing that many would abuse it for their own perceived gain. God's choice in design was perfect and no other design would have worked, and there were no alternative designs with God because He is perfect. And this design of God in creation and mankind is what we call reality. Free will belief is perfect reality.
Love and worship must come from the heart, from the free will belief of the soul, or it is not genuine or true. If faith were a "gift" imposed on the heart of man, it would not dwell in truth, it would be nonsense. I really don't see the omnipotent and omniscient God of the universe entertaining Himself with imposing love for Himself and being pleased with Himself for it when He would know it was not genuine and freely offered. That would be a child's game of pretend.
'Free will belief' is to the soul what breath is to the body. It is also just as easy. Faith is as easy and natural as breathing. Salvation is the gift of God. Hell is earned by hard work in resisting the very loud testimony of creation, but unbelief is unbelief in Christ, it is not the "inability" to believe. As Christians we speak of things, or should, in a Christ-centric manner. "Unbelievers" do not believe in Christ. But they believe in something else. The objects of their belief/faith do not save.
I'm not sure how to wrap up this post. Just wanted to share my thoughts and perhaps get some input or comment from Dr Ach.
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