Post by Dr James Ach on Jul 30, 2013 21:12:59 GMT 3
Another common proof text of the Calvinist is Romans 9:13 to show that God loves only the elect, because in contrast, there are those He hates, such as Esau:
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"
In this passage I am only going to expound on the concept of love and hate and it's varying definitions in Scripture without going into detail about the schema in which is referred to in Romans 9 between God choosing one nation over another. That issue I will cover later in a separate post covering Romans chapters 9-11. I have a brief comment on the history of Romans 9-11 here in a response to a Calvinist on our other website, Do Right Christians. See response to point #2http://dorightchristians.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/free-will-proves-the-sovereignty-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-1175
This response was posted on the wicked and corrupted Baptist Board forum in reply to a member that asked should we love the sinner? The view that Calvinists hold that God only loves SOME is the most egregious error in Calvinism. It is my opinion that all false doctrine begins with a misunderstanding of the character of God and the view that Reformed Theology espouses to that claims that God only loves some and wants and desires the damnation of the rest (non elect) is a gross caricature of the character of a loving God.
A clear example of the contrast of love and hate is in the story of Rachel and Leah.
" And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren." Genesis 29:30-31. Rachel being LOVED MORE is in direct contrast to Leah being HATED. Jacob loved Rachel MORE than he loved Leah and sometimes in the Bible hate is used in contrast to being loved LESS, and not in the context of anger and disposition toward destruction.
This same concept is also shown in Luke 14:26:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Did Jesus imply that we are to hate and despise our parents? That would be a conflict with Ephesians 6:1-2. Our we suppose to hate ourselves? That would be a conflict with Ephesians 5:29,
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church".
So then obviously "hate" often has a different context and meaning then that which is presumed by determinist theology (such as erroneous interpretations of God loving Jacob and hating Esau in Romans 9).
What if a man had a choice to save his wife or a bus full of children? A man's wife gets in an accident with a bus, both the bus and his wife's car are on fire. The children on the bus can escape if the husband simply unlocks the back door, but in doing so, his wife's car will explode. But if he takes the time to get his wife out of the seat belt, the children will all be burned alive. So the husband chooses to save the bus full of children and reluctantly does not spare his wife.
Obviously, the husband loved his wife MORE than a bus full of children he never knew. But did his actions show that he HATED his wife because he chose to save someone that he LOVED LESS? God did not spare His Son to save those that He obviously loves less than His own Son. Those who would challenge this would have to ignore the contrast that Christ Himself gave of the difference in Luke 14:26.
Nevertheless, love of any kind, whether more or less, can not by its own intrinsic quality and definition want and desire the harm and condemnation of another and by example sometimes love is demonstrated by sacrificing to another in which we love less. Love does not nearly seek the good of another, but the ULTIMATE good of another. Love that merely gives rain on the garden of the unjust but then "passes over" that person to his condemnation is only a temporary gratuity, but is not a demonstration of ultimate love. One may permit the temporary suffering to bring forth a greater flourishing, but that does not imply that even the suffering was desired and certainly does not have in mind that the suffering be permanent. Such a want and desire of the suffering and condemnation of another is the ultimate form of hatred of which is the motive that God condemns (1 John 3:15, Matthew 5:43-48) and it is certainly an egregious error to ascribe to God what He expects otherwise of His own children and for which He even holds unbelievers accountable for (Revelation 21:8).
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"
In this passage I am only going to expound on the concept of love and hate and it's varying definitions in Scripture without going into detail about the schema in which is referred to in Romans 9 between God choosing one nation over another. That issue I will cover later in a separate post covering Romans chapters 9-11. I have a brief comment on the history of Romans 9-11 here in a response to a Calvinist on our other website, Do Right Christians. See response to point #2http://dorightchristians.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/free-will-proves-the-sovereignty-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-1175
This response was posted on the wicked and corrupted Baptist Board forum in reply to a member that asked should we love the sinner? The view that Calvinists hold that God only loves SOME is the most egregious error in Calvinism. It is my opinion that all false doctrine begins with a misunderstanding of the character of God and the view that Reformed Theology espouses to that claims that God only loves some and wants and desires the damnation of the rest (non elect) is a gross caricature of the character of a loving God.
A clear example of the contrast of love and hate is in the story of Rachel and Leah.
" And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren." Genesis 29:30-31. Rachel being LOVED MORE is in direct contrast to Leah being HATED. Jacob loved Rachel MORE than he loved Leah and sometimes in the Bible hate is used in contrast to being loved LESS, and not in the context of anger and disposition toward destruction.
This same concept is also shown in Luke 14:26:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Did Jesus imply that we are to hate and despise our parents? That would be a conflict with Ephesians 6:1-2. Our we suppose to hate ourselves? That would be a conflict with Ephesians 5:29,
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church".
So then obviously "hate" often has a different context and meaning then that which is presumed by determinist theology (such as erroneous interpretations of God loving Jacob and hating Esau in Romans 9).
What if a man had a choice to save his wife or a bus full of children? A man's wife gets in an accident with a bus, both the bus and his wife's car are on fire. The children on the bus can escape if the husband simply unlocks the back door, but in doing so, his wife's car will explode. But if he takes the time to get his wife out of the seat belt, the children will all be burned alive. So the husband chooses to save the bus full of children and reluctantly does not spare his wife.
Obviously, the husband loved his wife MORE than a bus full of children he never knew. But did his actions show that he HATED his wife because he chose to save someone that he LOVED LESS? God did not spare His Son to save those that He obviously loves less than His own Son. Those who would challenge this would have to ignore the contrast that Christ Himself gave of the difference in Luke 14:26.
Nevertheless, love of any kind, whether more or less, can not by its own intrinsic quality and definition want and desire the harm and condemnation of another and by example sometimes love is demonstrated by sacrificing to another in which we love less. Love does not nearly seek the good of another, but the ULTIMATE good of another. Love that merely gives rain on the garden of the unjust but then "passes over" that person to his condemnation is only a temporary gratuity, but is not a demonstration of ultimate love. One may permit the temporary suffering to bring forth a greater flourishing, but that does not imply that even the suffering was desired and certainly does not have in mind that the suffering be permanent. Such a want and desire of the suffering and condemnation of another is the ultimate form of hatred of which is the motive that God condemns (1 John 3:15, Matthew 5:43-48) and it is certainly an egregious error to ascribe to God what He expects otherwise of His own children and for which He even holds unbelievers accountable for (Revelation 21:8).